Behind the Scenes of a Full-Time Producer’s Client Strategy

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Like, if you figure out why I'm posting this video, and really think about it and plan your content to hit the type of clients you want. I mean, that's all I really did. That's all I changed and then it started getting results.

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So instead of just mindlessly posting because you're supposed to like really thinking about like this is the target audience I want to hit. Hey everyone, Daniel Grimmett here. You're listening to Producer Management, the podcast that lets you in on real conversations between professional music producers and their teams.

The deals, the strategies, and the unfiltered advice. This show is brought to you by my company, Dark Label Music. When producers want clarity, strategy, and growth, they call us.

We're not a course or a coach. We're hired as a strategic partner, part management, part business development, designed for the realities of being a music producer right now. Whether you're a small studio or a Grammy-winning veteran, reach out to us at darklabelmusic.com to see if we can help.

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So in today's episode, I've got a recording of a conversation that I've been sitting on for over a year now, and I'm finally pulling it out of the vault to share it with you. You may have noticed that we recently released a video on our YouTube channel showcasing one of our producers named Jesse Shirts and breaking down his first two years as a full-time producer. In case you haven't seen that video, I'll bring you up to speed.

Jesse is a pop country producer down in South Carolina who was living in an RV and had just quit his job working at a warehouse when he reached out to us and hired us on as business partners to help him grow. In 24 months, he went from virtually no business to full-time earning as high as $9,000 a month, garnering 27 million streams on his catalog, he had his first child, and became a major label producer when one of the artists he develops inked a deal late last year. So the conversation I'll be sharing today actually goes back in time, about a year into Jesse's journey.

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He sat down with me and my business partner Aaron in person here in my office just to check in on his progress, and he goes a bit deeper into what he was doing and how he was thinking during this time period. Extra context and specifics that we couldn't really add to the YouTube video that we made about him. The conversation is about 50 minutes long.

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We talk about how simple TikTok videos led to steady work, how he evolved his content strategy to attract clients and not just other producers, and what it really takes to balance producing, creating content, and building a business. Aaron even goes into helping him with what's next and getting into bigger writing rooms and exploring, you know, the major industry. This was all before, funny enough, Jesse knew that a couple months after that, he would be thrown into that world because of his artist getting signed.

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But anyway, kind of cool to go back in time and see what he was doing back then and how he was thinking. So Jesse really just shares, you know, what changed when he stopped waiting for the industry and started creating his own opportunities. In this episode, I don't think I'm going to jump in with any commentary.

I don't think it's needed. I'm going to play the conversation all the way through. Enjoy the episode.

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Sweet. Well, my name is Jesse Schertz. I'm a music producer from South Carolina.

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I'll be 24 next month doing this full-time, which is awesome. Primarily working on country, pop country kind of stuff, and some pop stuff as well, but that's primarily what I'm doing. Right on.

How long have you been full-time doing this? I'm trying to think. I mean, it's been over a year, so probably, I could just say a year, honestly. It'd probably be about a year.

Yeah. Talk about how you're getting clients right now. Yeah, so right now, it's primarily TikTok and Instagram a little bit, but it's really funny.

I do just basic videos where I'll say, like, I'm a music producer. I'm looking for, for example, I'll be like, this month, I'm looking for three serious country artists that want to work. And like, that's the whole video, and I just have them either message me or hit the link in my bio, which is just a Google form right now.

Real simple, basic. Before we get into the nitty-gritty, can we go through what kind of acquiring clients was like before this method, like how things were before, how you used to approach it, and then how this kind of new process has maybe made things easier, made things more like reliable, steadier? So, I mean, before I joined Dark Label, it was all random. I wasn't really doing really anything to get clients.

It was just kind of random, which is why I wasn't full-time. And then I started doing outreach, just going on Instagram or Spotify. I started using Vibrate Analytics as well and just reaching out to people.

And then I started, I mean, I've been posting content for probably like two years now at this point, but then I sort of figured out what video worked, and then I just started repeating that. And I spent a little bit of money on ad spend as well, probably only like 200 bucks in total. But I mean, that's been working great for me.

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And when you came to us, you were doing more like hip-hop stuff, right? Yeah, so I started doing hip-hop rap beats. I was selling beats online. That's kind of what I did for like five years.

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And then I kind of wanted to get more into the pop stuff, and then kind of just stumbled into country. I never liked country as a kid either, which is kind of funny. Yeah, I didn't really care for it either.

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But now I love it. And well, I've been playing guitar since I was nine too, so it kind of just obviously is pretty guitar-driven music. So it just kind of made sense for me, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, still a good market for, I was telling him earlier, for players. And right now with it being so popular, it was just like everything just worked out great. Yeah, I think a lot of producers are, you know, want to choose their, you know, find their niche or this or that or whatever.

And I found that sometimes, a lot of times it's just fine. Yeah, unless you're only into one thing, and I've met producers that are just from day one only into one thing. Well, I've kind of like, I've been into different things at different points in my life and career, like music-wise.

So I just kind of, whatever I'm into, that's kind of what I just try to do, you know? It's not like I'm forcing it. It's just, this is what I like, so that's what I'm going to make, you know? Yeah, how did you, how did you start getting into the country stuff? So I posted a, like a country hip-hop beat on my YouTube channel, where I was posting like type beats and stuff. And this artist who's in Canada found it and reached out to me and was like, hey, I'd love it if you produce my EP for me.

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Which was awesome, and it was really fun, and the artist was really good. And I was like, well, maybe I should keep trying this because it, you know, someone wanted me to produce a whole EP for him. So I just tried it and I just started to really get into it, you know? And were you doing that remote at that time? Yeah.

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So he's in Canada, so is it kind of like you're recording them remotely or are they recording separately? You're giving them notes? I mean, pretty much everything I do, even to this point, I just produce instrumental. They handle the vocal recording and send it back to me and I'm usually mixing it. So, yep.

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I was going to ask, how many, how many tunes you're working on now? Well, I just finished up. I had like, I think I had like 11 songs going at once. So I just finished all of that, which is awesome.

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So I just landed a four song project this week, actually. So I'm about to be starting that next week. And I have, there's an artist I'm working with kind of like developing and I'm helping him out a good bit.

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I'm doing, I got four for him going right now, so always a lot. Sweet. Yeah.

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Can we go a little more in detail about the transition to like using TikTok and using content and social media a bit more and how that has helped just like attract the right clients and the sort of clients you want to be working with? Yeah, I mean, I've been, like I said, I've been posting consistently for, it honestly might be three years now, but when I first started, I didn't really have a direction with it. And then over time, I just realized, well, if you have a singular goal, like if you figure out why I'm posting this video and really think about it and plan your content to hit the type of clients you want. I mean, that's all I really did.

That's all I changed and then it started getting results. So instead of just mindlessly posting because you're supposed to like really thinking about like this is the target audience I want to hit. So I'm going to make this video to hopefully reach them.

And obviously I've like iterated as I've gone and I finally kind of figured out what's worked over time too. So for me, I mean, everyone's different, but. The videos that stuck out for me were the kind of like, hey, I'm Jesse and I'm looking for like three new clients this month, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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Would you say they are most effective in terms of like the people reaching out? Yeah. Well, the weird thing, because I post like two or three different kinds of videos now. What's weird on TikTok is I can't really tell where, so I can't give you a definitive answer, like this is a video that's 100% getting me all the views.

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But when I started posting that, I started getting way more inquiries for projects. So I'm assuming that's the. And what's interesting too is I work at a studio back home and I helped the owner of the studio.

Basically, I had him just copy my video, just put his name and what he's doing. And I got him clients like in the first week, he got like three, two or three clients off TikTok. So I'm assuming that's the video that's doing.

And how are these guys reaching out? Like what are the sort of messages people are sending you? Um most of the time they'll just DM me on TikTok like well, you have to go into your message request folder because the way TikTok is, but they'll just be like Hey, I'm an artist or hey, I saw your video. Um Sometimes they'll be like, hey, I'd love to work and then I'll be like, all right cool next step would be to fill out the form of my bio and then that's how I'm qualifying people usually so Got it. Okay sometimes it'll go straight to like a text message if I can see they're a serious artist and they're like Hey, I have this budget or I'm trying to do this and I might Move quicker, but usually I'm trying to qualify people with a form So yeah, because one of the things that stands out if I'm an artist and I come across a video Of a producer.

Hey, I'm looking for three country artists to work with, you know Are any of them ever shocked that like, oh you have a production fee or studio time or anything like like that? Some do like I definitely have people that are like They'll just say up front like I was talking to a guy yesterday. He was like, I'm a new artist I use beats for free. I just rip them off youtube.

So i'm like i'm not even gonna follow up with him but All the serious artists that i've gotten from tiktok either they've worked with producers before so they kind of expect it or They're fine with it or they kind of just assume that there's going to be a fee I feel like the serious artist that's not really an issue Which is what you're looking for. Anyway, like a serious artist i've never had to like You know try to convince them It's always just like here's the price Do you want to move forward or not? And you know and have any sort of approached you saying oh I don't typically do this or I work for 50 50 or i'm more interested in collabs and it's like are you getting a lot? Of that resistance or mostly people just pretty serious. They understand like Productions as much as an art is what they do up to this point for the most part the serious artists There's never really an issue.

Um And i've done stuff for you know, just back in like if I think the artist is really cool i've obviously sometimes If the situation makes sense and that's what I always tell artists that are like Well, could we split the back end? I always explain to them Well, what are your numbers like it needs to make sense for me economically Like i'm not gonna if you're getting 12 monthly listeners, I can't realistically do that. So it's all just situational, you know What's day-to-day like being a working producer now because you transitioned out of a You were working a part-time job when you met when you came into to the incubator um Did you have? sometimes what will happen is when people go from having like a day job to Producing full-time or doing anything full-time themselves. Um All of a sudden they have you know, they're in control of their schedule fully.

It's like what do I do? Yeah, yeah, and they they struggle with structure. They didn't realize how much of the structure came from having Someone tell you show up at this time clock out at this time and then you build your your life around that schedule Uh, how was it adapting to they'll either do one They'll either sit around twiddle their thumbs or they'll just work, you know, 24 seven and never stop. It's usually one or the other Um, have you settled into a balance yet? Yeah, I mean I kind of always had a balance I think and it could just be my personality.

I'm a very organized like person typically um And I have enough projects that it's like I don't have a choice like to get everything done and make sure i'm getting paid on time to pay the bills and stuff like I have to be You know focused and stuff, but typically day-to-day. I just wake up as early as I can and go to the studio Typically in the morning I try to get content done if i'm going to film content that day and then I'll usually work on like mixing in the morning when my ears are fresh and then Like production like new tracks and stuff in the afternoon. Typically.

That's what I typically try to do and it changes day-to-day but usually I just try to get up as early as I can and I go to the studio and work until You know i'm done for the day. So How often you having artists in that's doing remote work? I'm, sorry, how often you having my artists come to the studio these uh, just the remote stuff um Maybe once a week Well, and I like I said, I work at a studio as well. So sometimes i'll take on like just recording Like, you know two hour blocks or whatever if the owner doesn't have time or if it's something he thinks I should Handle or whatever.

So I have some of that occasionally. Um, I also do like voiceover stuff at the studio for like uh voice actors and stuff like that occasionally, um And then I have a few local artists that I work with so whenever it's time to record vocals, we'll just kind of schedule a day for them to come in and um, so that's a little little less consistent the in-person stuff, but Do you prefer the impersonal or remote or you just enjoy the balance? I prefer when i'm creating the tracks. I prefer to be alone.

That's just how I work. I um, I feel like when i'm under pressure and it's probably something I should work on but when i'm under pressure like create I feel Like I don't do as well when I when i'm alone. I feel like I just have time to like really figure stuff out um But the vocal recording is cool.

Like I enjoy that as well. And then obviously I know like The quality is gonna Be what I need it to be because i've i've also had a situation recently. Actually.

I was working on a track and The guy's in fort worth texas and he went and recorded at some big studio that I guess a few like bigger artists went to and they sent the vocals back and they're like over compressed and clipping and i'm like man, like and he paid I guess a good amount of money i'm assuming to record there so i'm like It just sucks either he's gonna have to pay to record again or I have to like try to fix the vocals and the quality Is just not there. So That's always nice record like when you record them or you have someone, you know recording them like, you know The quality is going to be better. So yeah, I end up doing whenever I do remote stuff I'll always end up having like a pre-call with the engineer and i'll be like cool.

Here's the Assess what gear they've got. Sure. I'm like cool.

Here's what I want Here's the level of compression like your max at 3db no more than that and i'll go through like their gain staging or whatever Um, and then i'll try and be on the call like a zoom call when they're doing it, but you can't always be right um Just because especially if you're traveling or whatever it's remote that the worst thing is just having bad vocals come through because it takes It means the project just takes way longer, right? You're gonna you're spending a lot of time trying to fix things rather than just and then the results not going to be as good like Yeah, but you can't always record them. That's everything I'm, probably that's a good idea. I'm probably gonna have to start doing that like when possible Um, I mean that specific situation the guy just booked the session and went I didn't even know when he was going to record so um, I mean you'll you'll have that but I'll almost always do it.

I did a lot. Um for an artist that was in australia Um, and so it was always just kind of like a pre-session facetime. It's like cool What have you got run me through it what mics we got what compressors we got what we're gonna go through Cool, let's check all the levels and everything.

Um, and then and I just set very clear parameters Yes, like I want the gain here and then no more the compression than this and then we're good um Just because it means just the whole process is a whole lot easier, right for sure Yeah you're uh Client acquisition side because you you know crushed on the outreach stuff, you know hitting up God knows how many how many artists? um, I was doing like At the peak when I was just like hammering I was doing like 50 a day or something like that So like 250 a week. Wow. Yeah, so talking to a ton of artists.

Yeah um And then when did it sort of switch to where it started becoming inbound that's a big question that people have is like okay when's the You know content gonna start working um, I mean for me like Whenever that video kind of started doing what it did and I saw like oh this is a way better investment in time because I mean in the first week I probably had like 20 people fill out my form so I was like I can do that in like an hour or less doing a video or I can spend Countless hours reaching out to artists and maybe get You know a tenth of that, you know result. So um But I was doing both still I was still doing outreach But I was finally like this isn't worth my time and I have projects I actually got to work on so i'd rather just of course, you know Schedule time to do the content Yeah, we're still trying to crack the code on this I think it's good though to do both like when the content is working still do the outreach until you know, like That like if you've been doing it for a month and you're consistently getting stuff then it's like okay Well now it makes sense for me to switch over completely, you know Yeah, it's an important skill to have. I mean, you got to know how to go network with people.

It's you know Well, i'm glad I did because like go down or just talking to people on the phone every day Like that was a great skill to huge, you know, yeah, plus if it's like yeah, cool Everybody just make the same video i'm gonna produce a look, you know, eventually it's gonna get saturated not work. Anyway, you know Um, so it's well i've been testing different stuff too to like Because I know eventually that type of video or the algorithm is going to change so you got to always be Thinking like what's the next thing that can work for me? You know, what else have you tested? um i've been testing like more like I don't want to say viral but like kind of like not clickbaity either So what I did is one song I have with that jt artist. I think I was talking about him earlier Um, I took his vocals and ran it through ai to make it sound like morgan wallen so i've been doing stuff like that like oh I got morgan wallen on the song or Trying to do stuff like that to see if I can get one more viral videos to get just more of a following and stuff, but also see if that will convert at all to Because my main focus right now with social media is just to convert You know paying clients at the moment, you know, yeah that that's a another Thing that I want when you were talking about scheduling earlier um Because I think a lot of people are like, oh, how do we get all this done? Because you're a work of producer.

You're not a content creator You know, there's content creators that and you know, one isn't better or worse than the other It's just two different lifestyles, you know, like a lot of the guys really doing like the youtube thing in the music Well, 80 of their life is content and maybe 20 of the music stuff. Yeah And then you have the flip side of that which is you know 80 you're in the studio working with Artists doing that stuff, but there still has to be that 20 of of content. Um so how do you Balance though because you get it all done.

Um and you know just for context no kids, obviously you're full time, so um But still still a lot to get done because if you're doing You know 11 songs at a time, right? Um So yeah walk us through like how much content a week. Do you do? Uh, how long does it take you to get? a video done Um, when do you work on it? How long all that stuff? Yeah, so Right now i've been doing about One to two a week and it also depends too if i've had Projects or songs like singles released with an artist I'll also make content with those songs. So if there's more releases and i'll usually be posting more content and then when there's not songs being released there'll be less but And then typically a video depending on the video like if i'm doing a breakdown video or i'm having to record the screen and edit it and stuff that takes Probably two hours to film and edit and post which isn't that bad, honestly, um, and then The other type of video i was talking about where i'm just like hey i'm a producer that'll take You know 20 minutes through the whole thing.

Um I think too though once you do it enough you can like build a system to where you know Like this is where the camera needs to go. That's where the audio needs to be and you can just kind of Run through it. So so you spend about four to five hours on content a week Some weeks more some weeks less, um, okay I want to be more consistent with it, I guess but i'm still trying to figure it out, too And are you doing any outreach right now? No, just all okay all content What about networking with other producers writers that kind of stuff? Yeah a little bit.

Um, And that content's kind of actually gotten me some Or I started conversation with other producers and writers and stuff as well. Nothing like major yet, but Um, it's cool. So That helps with that too.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're trying to crack the code and make it A little bit more repeatable. We've had it's literally been like 50 50 with marshall.

We'll give you know, shout out to marshall Um, well, basically I just copied marshall. Yeah. Yeah marshall's a producer in the incubator who um Had come in and I was like, how'd you get clients in the past? I ran tiktok ads.

Oh, that's cool We tried some some more Experiments with them to to share with you guys and some other people have tried stuff um I don't know that ever Got any reports from you that that was working for you. That's good to know because almost everyone else it didn't quite have the Same sort of thing. I think it depends too on Probably your maybe your personality like the way you're on camera plus The type of music you make because like I I do like country folk like that americana that kind of stuff Which right now is like crushing on tiktok.

So if you're making Rap or like hip-hop beats like that probably wouldn't It might work. I mean, I don't know you just have to try it Maybe it's just because there's clarity at all, you know But jesse and both jesse and marshall feel like very open when you look you view them on tiktok It's like very accessible You kind of want to reach out to them That's very warm and I know that took a lot of time though Because like if you watch my content from like two years ago, it's like the exact opposite so that's another skill you got to learn is how to talk to a camera how like you almost have to Exaggerate too tight like twice as much of your personality for it to translate on camera if that makes sense Hey, and you're like very open but it works so well because like oh cool Who's this dude, but it's very awkward if we're like, it's very weird if you're not used to it You know what? I mean? Yeah, right quick your monitor. I just don't know if it's still recording.

Okay, cool um, but it's it is definitely a skill you gotta You know develop and stuff I think yeah Yeah, because I also something that stuck out to me was a lot of my like producer friends are very unaware of the Like the fact that your is your content is like it's doing well, right? But it's not millions of views, right? And the fact that a few thousand views or a few hundred views translates to people reaching out And those people reaching out it's like they are serious people. A lot of people get dms in the nightmare um, and or it's a very quick like producer reaction watch a budget And there's no real process to it Um, and it's kind of like seeing the value in those people and and kind of the fact that they are clients Yeah, well, I think too like like I was saying earlier having a goal with the content Because like when I started making content, it was definitely more like producer based like for tips or tricks, but like the only people that watch that are producers so like Shifting that to like what does an artist want to see? What is an artist that wants? To work with a producer right now or that's looking for a producer What do they want to see and if you're like i'm a producer i'll let's work like that's what they want to see So you have to kind of because I see a lot of producers when they start making content It's all the same stuff. It's like how to eq a vocal how to but like Most artists don't care like you know what I mean? So I had to I had to make that shift in my content and once I did that You know started getting results.

What was the shift for you? Honestly just thinking well, I guess a few things one thinking okay, what do artists actually want to see like they don't care about Eq curves and you know all the nerdy stuff we care about what do they care about? Um I'm, so honestly trying to figure that out. Honestly, like I I don't i'm not gonna see I think it's experience They see somebody that looks fun to work with that too Yeah, like oh it'd be fun personality like if if you seem like a cool person or a nice person like that would help as well Yeah, um, they're liking what they're hearing, you know what you're creating they're liking the person like oh, yeah Cool. I mean we got to see a little bit of this with um content was a massive strategy for our production company But when austin came in and started morphing into the make pop music stuff, I mean, that's when I really got to to see that um So yeah, they just like him and the stuff he makes and cool.

It's literal business card. It replicates the it replicates you know, maybe not a hundred percent, but sixty percent of Me meeting you cold because our publishers put us together to to write, you know, yeah. Um, so What is interesting too is when I was doing outreach because I was posting content and doing outreach at the same time All of the outreach that turned into work.

They all mentioned that they liked my content So like all the people that turn into clients from outreach went and watched the content anyway So I don't think if I didn't have the content I don't think the outreach would have worked as well at least for me and my person like the way I am with Bond is way stronger, right? There's already that rapport starting to be built and once I started going more into content people that I talked to Like months ago that never turned anything. They kept seeing me and it turned into work So it's an you know, it keeps warming them up. Finally.

They're like, all right, let's work. Yeah, absolutely and you said something earlier that I definitely wanted to drill because I get the comment all the time when people are like looking. Oh like who's been in dark level who's there, you know um and outside of a couple, you know, very very small handful that Are you know really prolific content creators and been doing it for a long time and probably doing it before They were You know doing anything with dark label everyone else Doesn't really have like huge followings or anything that surprised me like oh I checked out a couple of instagrams for some of the You know people that went through dark like none of them have a lot of followers like yeah No, they make six figures a year, you know, um, our youtube channel is not Big at all, you know, um, and it brings us incredible incredible clients, so I think it's yeah, it's very hard to not get into the like oh social media only works if you have A gazillion followers.

So well, that's a different business model. Yeah, you know, so the the studio page on tiktok Studio 101 recording if anyone wants to check it out. Um I don't I'd have to check but I don't even think he has a thousand followers The video that I helped him make got like 4 000 views and I got him three paying clients Like I think it was three.

I may not have to check but still he got paying work off of 4 000 views But there's even there's in instances where it's far less than that and it's it's all about your Like how far do you niche down? Okay then The algorithm kind of feeds it to those sort of people and if you've niched that well You don't need a lot of those people because there's a chance that a few of them will be Kind of willing to at least go through and chat to you When you're reaching like hundreds of thousands the chances are that is not your niche, right? And it may be useful in other areas right but in terms of literal like production service based up Um, well, I think the tiktok algorithm is actually really I mean people complain about the algorithm but I think the tiktok algorithm is actually really dead on with that stuff and so it's more about like It's not the algorithm's fault. It's just your content isn't what it needs to be for whatever your goal is, you know Yeah, 100 Yeah, how how does it? Uh Let's let's get in the mental side. How does it feel being a full-time producer for a year? It's great I mean, yeah, I was actually thinking about it on the write-up here.

It's just like It's weird to think about like a year ago. I didn't know like Or I feel way more stable and like or just happy in general, you know, that's really cool Yeah, it's it's exciting in the first it's the energy shift as well, right? You can kind of feel it It's like the stability is like you're very like chill and like looking up. Yeah Yeah, I remember when I when I moved to la and finally like made it a thing I was like, wow, this is my job now.

It took me what you know I've told people I didn't believe it was real for the first 16 months. I was like, oh any Any one of these months it's gonna you know stop what's weird too is like For like probably six or eight months. It just felt like I mean it is a grind like everything's a grind, you know But it it was like all of a sudden it was just like oh Like i'm making this much money or like oh stuff's happening now, you know what I mean? It was just it was I was thinking about that earlier is like it's weird to think about how Just all of a sudden it's like oh like i'm doing what i'm doing now.

Like it's really cool Yeah, it feels awesome to just be like cool for sure I set out to do a thing I did it, you know for me it was going Back and forth from day jobs to trying it to get full time you know six six years of of that earn earnestly trying for six years before that was a teenager didn't matter but um And my adult yeah six years back and forth and then when you finally do it and I did in la which was like a you know um Yeah, whenever I would come back home and visit man It was just like, you know, you felt on top of the world because you were the kid from your you know city that went and and did it even though it was a small, you know small at that time a small, uh, version of it. Um Feels it feels really good. Um So yeah, that's that's great man.

It's uh You you definitely earned it man. You worked hard You worked hard. Thank you.

I think that's the that's something that people underestimate a lot as well, right? It's like oh i'm really trying i'm doing this. It's like well, how many people did you reach out to? Oh, like five this week. Okay.

Well, that's times up by 10. Um And like you mentioned you said something earlier. It was like, oh, it's a grind but it's like yeah Cool pick your grind like you can go into a day job.

You hate to grind like it like it's like, uh What is it? It's like pick your pick your Or it's like embrace the suck but it's like pick what you know pick what that is, you know it's either like it sucks because you hate it or it sucks because You got to work a ton of hours, but yeah You know, I was right I wrote something down the car something we were listening to some podcasts driving back from the From the beach today. Somebody said something. I think it was in the first one.

We were listening to um, and it just uh It popped an idea in my head I was like, oh, let me write this down. Um, and It was basically like, you know people like oh, I really want to do this because I have a a passion for music Right, and it's like I just wrote down Basically, it's not about having a passion for music It's if you're lucky enough to happen to have a passion for doing all the other stuff you have to do to to make music, you know a career like like I can't imagine if I Hated making content and youtube, you know what I mean? Like, um, or all that, you know it's like whenever someone's like, oh, I hate the kind of hate this I was like, well, that's a bummer man because like You know Just having a passion for music. It's like that you're up against people that they love the music They also love talking to the art.

They also love doing the sales. They also love doing the content And they're just creative people and they're entrepreneurs I don't even think you have to love it But it's like you have to do like I remember the day when I decided okay I'm gonna do content because I want a career in this like I have to like it doesn't matter if I want to or not And like honestly when I started doing content, I did not like it or enjoy it But I was like I have to do this like Or like outreach like I don't necessarily like sitting there and Reaching out to 50 people. It like is boring But if you want a career in music, you gotta do the stuff that no one else will you know? Yeah, absolutely or in any career like any endeavor, you know or any entrepreneurial thing You have to do the stuff that no one wants to I think the the like the the big point there is just hey Music isn't enough and it's not oh, yeah, and it's like cool that just it's like it's like cool You can have the the fact that we all do music because we love it, right? But there's times where we're creating and it's like it's like some of the most beautiful moments You'll have as a creative but it's like cool You get that high because also you have to put in this grunt work and that's cool The grunt work will become less you can build a team as you scale you can do whatever But there is going to be that hump that you just kind of have to get over um And then having the skill too just means that like wherever you're in a rut you can dig back in and pull yourself out Yeah, for sure Yeah, absolutely.

What's uh your focus next? Probably just continue what i'm doing for a while just buildings. I mean, I definitely want to start getting more like um Label stuff or bigger artists stuff, but I know that'll happen in time i'm working with some art like up-and-coming artists that i'm really hyped about too so It'd be awesome If like one of those artists pops off and I can be like part of the team instead of just you know Getting paid by a label, you know two years after you do the work, you know what I mean? Like it'd be cool to be part of a team that actually takes off, you know Yeah, you'll still get paid two years later, but yeah true. Yeah But at least your name's on it and like, you know Yeah, I know for sure and it's fun to break artists like it is really fun um, or at least go through that experience with them and There's no guarantee that you'll carry on working with them afterwards but like even that build is fun and then that'll also attract a bunch of other different people and then It's kind of domino effect from there.

I've had so many experiences too with artists where i'm working with them and like We're like right there like there was this one artist Who timbaland followed them and wanted to sign them um, he was doing country music and then like Last minute he was like, oh, I don't want to do country music anymore. And i'm like the artist. Yeah the artist.

Yeah um I mean, it was a good experience and like the music we made was cool and I definitely learned a lot um in the production process and just overall like I definitely grew from it, but um, you'll have that too where it's like you're almost there and then it just all falls through i've had that so many times where like Especially with industry stuff or like opportunities and they always just not that every opportunity is going to fall through but I guess my mindset now is like I just want to build my own thing because I know that i'm not going to drop a pole On it or i'm not going to get left out because I built the thing or I did the thing You know what? I mean? Yeah, if that makes sense at all That's why the whole I mean both of us will ram home like Hit your economics then have some fun Yeah, try things because essentially anything in the industry you're throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks And that's the deal that is the game like you're gonna have to play the game of in in you're doing indie stuff you naturally take like half up front you get the other half before you deliver the files like there is That the money is very much kind of in your control. Yeah, at least when you're doing More label stuff. It's like well, no you do tons of spec sessions.

You try and create the best songs you can Yeah, if one comes out awesome, you'll get paid at some point and then your royalties will trickle in like a few years later So, um, man, I did some spec. I don't even know if i'm allowed to say this, but I did some spec stuff Uh some editing and stuff on a track with post malone But the whole thing like fell through I was like dang but I mean I kind of expected that it's like that's what's gonna happen. Like, you know I've had been with so many writers and they're like, yo, listen.

Yeah, i'm sure i'm sure Listen to this beaver record i've worked with like I have crazy vocals on my laptop, right? But it's like well half that stuff didn't come out so they're not credits But here's a thing I did with x artist, right? And it's kind of frustrating but it's also like you just know the game, right? So it's like if your expectations are there and that's fine Um, yes, you have worked with x artists, but it's not on you. Well, I think too it's just a good like um reminder of like Okay, actually i'm good enough. Like I have I've worked with this hour, even though they didn't come out like i'm still, you know doing something, you know Oh, sorry, i was gonna say understanding that like you're There's only so much you can control There's so much within the rest of music and especially in that world that says Oh, it's something's going to come out or not It's like does the artist suddenly get sued? Do they change genre? Do they have to go on tour? Do their release schedule get moved? It's like do they get sick like Um, does the label just decide? Oh, actually no, we're going to go down here So therefore this album tracks dropped or the manager suddenly like no, this is not it There's so many things that can just derail the release.

Yeah, um, and so Especially in london coming up. It was like very much just for like on the spec world. Um and I feel just the model that we're kind of running just Breeds so much more security and you feel secure about just going after the bigger risk because it's like economically you're covered, right? Exactly.

Yeah, regardless. It's like there's food on the table. You build a page.

You've got some extra and then you can have some fun Yep Yeah, 100 Yeah, it's still You know, i've been when i've been talking to producers on the phone about sort of control, you know, I used to Drill in like okay have have some control over what you're doing, you know i've kind of changed that i've been Because it's I think it's a bit more accurate just to say it is like listen There's gonna be a lot in this business that you can't control what we've found is If a producer feels like they have at least like 50 percent control of what's going on, you know Like okay, I can at least get my bills paid then that that makes them feel a lot better you know, I can't actually sit there and say like Oh come, you know develop some business skills do this get around some great people Um become more business savvy. You'll have a hundred percent control of your music career So well, not if that involves any kind of like sync or spec or label stuff I mean because like you said right you put in one unit of energy and Get a hundred back or sometimes you put in a hundred in and you get zero back but if Half of your life or business or you know as a musician it has some control to it's like, okay Well, at least I can you know My we're humans we crave stability right and people one option is they could just keep whatever their Day job is and you know There's a lot of guys in la like alex was saying they work at costco in the mornings or whatever coffee shot, you know um, and then then go do spec sessions, but If you want to look at it as like well, some people just want to claim Hey, i'm a full-time producer. So they want to do client work or they may look at it Like well if I have to work a day job Even if it's not the best clients in the world, at least i'm still honing my craft, you know I'm spending more time.

Yeah making music even though if maybe some of these projects aren't going to go anywhere it's vanity projects or something like that, but You know, I feel like well that Helps me get closer to my goal and maybe working at a coffee shop, you know, at least i'm making music um different people have different ways that they that they look at it, but um But yeah, it's like just having a little bit more control of things and that's not that hard to dial, you know like, you know that right like um A ton of producer almost all the ones I talked to that that come from more of the spec side One don't which don't even know that that freelance is a thing which that really surprised me um And then two the ones that do it's so like you would be and maybe you've come across I don't know how many producers you talk about this stuff, but like You knowing what you know now and doing what you what you do. You would be so shocked how just like Floating in the wind most producers are Well, that's how I was before okay, I started with you guys so but there's also you you mentioned like they're not know it's a thing It's not so much that it's more like they're aware It's a thing but they don't take it seriously because they think it's like it reduces their credibility to do major label stuff And they do that with the content stuff too. They think like oh, you know, that's corny to make content But yeah, but it's just it's just not reality.

It's like if you're if you're still making incredible records It's like someone's not going to say oh I won't take that because you've made a tiktok video But the reality of that doesn't really translate. Yes. Okay, you could go down the route of too cheesy And then you're just that's more personality.

Yeah, if you end up spending all of your time on content I get the argument for that. It's like well, you're a content creator. You're not developing your craft as a producer So I understand that but yeah, that's it's just a personality thing, right? I think jesse does that really well just comes across as like cool.

This is what I do full-time Cool, I can work with these people. I also work with these people try and do more of this. I also have this cool I have to watch myself to be very careful of Um, because I relate to all all of it, you know, uh We we have to be very careful with like trying to Impress the past if that makes sense, you know what I mean? it's like oh I came up this way and that's how it used to be and I want to stick to that it's like Well, that's over though.

Why are we trying to optimize for for that? I mean I I get why because I feel it myself but like You know if you're looking at who you're going to be working with in the next 10 years those artists who are going to be 25 10 years from now when you're in your early 30s and you're still trying to develop young country acts um, they're 25 at that point, so they're 15 that like Well that generation is going to be like the opposite. They're going to be like, where's your content? Why do you not have content? It's such that you don't have any content like who are you do you even exist? Yeah, so it's like that's optimizing for how people are going to think and feel in the future versus oh i'm afraid that You know, so-and-so producer Is not going to take me seriously. It's like well that guy's on the way out.

That's not the future you know, no disrespect to the person but um it's it's real tricky to not do that and and want to be like you want to yeah optimize for the past instead of the well, it's weird like every other industry though is adapting and like Making content and hiring agencies to make content for them like why shouldn't music producers like it's a business You know what? I mean? Like I don't know music industry is just always behind with everything if you actually choose things like compared to other industries It's like okay, which is um sure um, and if you kind of slowly adopt those Just approaches it's usually bearing better results. You're at a point now So let's let's just do a timeline here. So people have the have the context working on a warehouse um Doing audio part-time, you know producing part-time Then you go full-time How many hours you work in a week now like full-time? I mean it varies usually I get to the studio between seven and nine a.m. And I leave at six.

So okay Pretty full days. Yeah, and primarily focus on freelance stuff and then you have a couple Clients you're like developing or at least one guy. You're developing, right? Okay, so You said earlier.

Hey, i'm gonna ride things out. Let that stabilize a bit. I know you had your highest Paid month last month and it's been consistently like at a good spot.

So yeah, um, but I want to keep I want to do that for a while more before I Switch focus just so I can be like, you know, so what eventually is going to happen Usually not to everybody But eventually get to a point where you're like, okay, cool. This is cool. Honeymoon's over though, right? I want more right? The first thing is you're just pumped you can do music full-time, especially you're not just doing music full-time But making a you know If you keep having months like you had last month and you're you're on track for a six-figure income making music.

It's pretty sick however, even that gets Normal becomes normal gets boring. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and then you're like I want more I want more so Transitioning into doing more, you know reputation building and trying to get bigger, you know placements and cover trying to break artists What you know, what would be the transition to that? For jesse who's working full-time right now Doing freelance stuff outside of just having a magic moment where maybe one of the artists, right, you know kind of blows up but uh if he was Like mapping mapping it out.

Yeah. Yeah, then You've kind of reached a level of security where your lifestyle is kind of covered, right? So then it's like cool. How much time can you allocate to? We'll call this like spec stuff um and then there's a mindset shift that kind of has to happen and it's usually like I'll have this conversation a lot and it's usually just The expectation has to be different, right? You're gonna you're gonna put time into a song And you're going to expect nothing from it and so you're just in the room with some people that we'll talk about later um, and the goal is just to make the best record possible and You're essentially know that you're building an asset You you and a series of people are creating something that you all have equal ownership of usually Um, and that could find a home that could not that could help you get in the room It could whatever but it has some value it could in five years time be signed by someone else, right? um Now my most effective way into these sort of things was looking at songwriters Um, and I spoke to a few other we've had loads of chats with all sorts of like major label guys and similar similar story Um for me, it was the fact that songwriters usually do like one to two sessions a day They're usually changing artists most days and so their network of artists is way bigger same with a and r's Producers will usually lock in with an artist for a little longer and like because songs take a bit longer and we have a longer like time period right um, so Locking in and building catalog with songwriters meant that there's that there's the off chance of oh Hey x producers cancelled today Like can you hop in this session or i've got this session with these these like this cool artist i'm developing coming up Can we prep some stuff or I was in this meeting with x a and r or these guys and they really love this song We did can we get in and make some more for that even if it's not this song? um And that for me meant my network just started to domino and it was suddenly like you're getting hit up a lot more But for the sort of spec things you want to be doing um, so it's like like you did with outreach and inbound whatever it's like allow yourself enough time for that hump because there's gonna Be the hump of like slowly getting in this in this sort of session um, and Another like I said this perspective shift is like i'm going into this not expecting anything from it Just trying to create the best thing we can um But for me it was super effective because it was then I was meeting way more artists.

Um, and the sort of writers I was I was with it was very clear that I was like Trying to find people that were creating the sort of music. I wanted to create so I wasn't wasting any time And it was the sort of circles I wanted to be in. Um And that has brought me way more opportunities I guess kind of how like your content did for for your independent stuff the songwriters did that for the spec stuff.

Gotcha So, would you recommend like when you were doing it because you're obviously in london, um, were you doing all um like in-person sessions or because like where i'm at there's not really a Too big of a music. I mean there is a music scene, but it's all you know, local people. So would you recommend like networking with those people On social media and then trying to like, you know go to nashville fly out to la or whatever um Would you recommend doing that a lot but like because obviously like last minute they're like yo, can you do something? I can't just probably can't just hop on a plane.

You know what I mean? Um, I did a I did a whole mix london. I'm lucky. It's like a big music city Um, but you can get to know that network really quickly um, and then obviously it's always growing and there's tons of little sub pockets and whatever but sure, um You end up doing loads remote too like I would do It would be a case of like oh this songwriter has moved here or this songwriter is now working here or I met this Songwriter on a trip in la.

Um, and the way I used to do um like a lot of it was in-person meets and it'd be like This session met this person in the studio like other mingling room at this event I got talking to these people I got some numbers and I hit them up but whenever i'm hitting people up if it was just like cold outreach on insta because I love the record they wrote or I've had i've met them at some point. It was always like don't just hit them with without an action I would always be like, oh i'd go and listen to the sort of things i'd written last I'd make a few tracks that kind of like fit the vibe Um, or at least what I thought we could be good at making together and then it'd be a message like hey I loved your writing on this record or great to meet you the other night Here's some ideas I had um for us like I would love to just build some songs together I'd like to make some records cool. Um, and that way So you're not hitting them being like, hey, we'd love to work sometime.

Like give me your schedule Giving them stuff to work on Yeah, just give them a link and make sure it's not expiring and they can press play on it and just use dropbots um, but Then That way I just had a way better response, right? Um, and then from that I was like, oh this guy hit me up This is cool then it'd be a case of oh do you mind if I bring this other writer in like that happened to me and then Then it ends up being one of the writers I write with the most And she was brought in as like an extra to a session. Um, and I had no idea who she was It was just another songwriter saying are they gonna bring another writer to the session? I was like cool. Yeah Um, and that will come from just hitting someone up.

Cool. Yeah, you're not that far from nashville luckily Yeah, yeah, so just go up there. Sure.

He's like john. Kavanagh sets in denver pop pop guy and dark label in the incubator Yeah, he goes to la I don't know every couple months or something. Yeah Yeah, they're just scheduled trips and half stuff's probably gonna get canceled But either way it's more like even if you're meeting these guys for coffee, you can do the creation wherever Um, sure, even if you're just starting to build like the ideas you can finish stuff at home.

Um, definitely. Yeah I know that's for sure because usually that I run into that when Any artist or any producer that that's in the incubator that we're talking to does a trip to l.a You know, I never I don't hear from for like a month after i'm like, hey, what's how you been? What's going on? I was like, oh i've just been trying to finish all this stuff up from when I you know because you get out there and you're excited you're doing these sessions and you get home you're like Oh shit, I got like 30 Spec songs I have to finish right. Um, so yeah, you can totally totally do it that way That's the difference in the songwriting the producer, right? Somewhere I can go in and just like more awesome smash it out done leave We're like, okay vocal tuning production mixing delivering a demo like there's there's a good couple of days that's another thing i've been thinking of is starting to build a team like Maybe getting someone to do some mixing for me someone to edit I mean, obviously i'm not quite at that point yet.

I don't think income wise to be able to like pay people But that's probably the next The thing I might start doing is getting other people to help so that way current economics Are you pretty you feel pretty comfortable as far as like expense to income ratio? I think so. Yeah, I mean, I feel pretty good So I mean the thing is i'd be able to take on more work. So i'll be making More money probably if i'm able to well that but also if you just you know Because right now if you're doing a grand a song or whatever, there's obviously room to grow You could just yeah, so if you only if none of that extra, you know, let's say you have to charge extra Whatever 250 500 whatever, um, or even a thousand just put that what you do yeah, yeah, if you if you're I mean listen, ideally there'd be there'd be more profit, but this this becomes more about You know Just buying back your time so I can't do stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly So if you're like, hey cool what i'm bringing in now just doing these thousand dollar tracks for people Is you know twice my living expenses or whatever? Um what it costs to live then it's like we got a lot of room to say one you could just work less That's one answer, you know, um And then that opens up time too. You could up your price and be like cool anything above what i'm trying You know your money essentially stays the same except you have more time open sure and uh Yeah, there's two kind of two ways to to get to it.

But uh Yeah I'll just go through your process and figure out what's taking the most amount of time right that you don't have to do because for me like a lot a lot of people and I tried it once was like outsourcing vocal production and I realized that It's just way more work than it's worth because although the job's not done properly I would need to retune things. It's not aligned I guess not where I want it because vocals are such a like integral part of how I produce so for me a lot of times it was Um, is there a budget for a great mixer if there is i'll outsource it if not i'm mixing myself. Um, but there's Yeah, there's just other other other ways.

You can it's just like figure out where your time sinks are Um, and what's sucking all your time for sure like cool is this something I can reasonably outsource without creating more work Yeah, if it is awesome well the other thing too i'm i've been thinking just thinking through this is like it would need to be the right person that gets because like if an artist hires me because like my sound I don't want to outsource something and it change everything and then the artist not be Happy or like you say like it not go well and then it's like then I have to do it myself Anyway, you know and it's like could it be on the content side? Yeah content stuff It could you know, not even people but software for you know speeding up Admin stuff that you got to do. Yeah Um, just like could it be as simple as cool? I'm now i've got an editor and someone that films and whatever I just turn up smash it out and done Yeah, then and I can do like double the amount of content that way in the same time or just half the time and the Same amount of content, right? Um And that's like and that's not super expensive. That won't cost you a whole lot for sure Yeah, well there's still a lot of room to grow too on the on the what you're charging I know you got a sweet spot.

Yeah, but um, yeah for me for you that felt quite low um But with you know something you can just test. Yeah. Yeah Yes is easier probably the next time i'll Just be like hey 1500 instead of a thousand and see if I can start.

Yeah. Well, it will yeah demand goes up So yeah, 100 for sure. Um absolutely, I mean some of the You know austin and mark when he was still producing like Some people look at those guys fees and they're just like what the hell I mean they haven't done this or that or you know at that time Um, they don't have these credit.

It's like yeah, it's called it's just demand You know a lot of people want to work with them. Yeah, um That's this is basic basic business A quick note here if you go to producer management.com You'll find links to jump on our newsletter and subscribe to the show Please rate and review the show if you liked it or drop us a comment and let us know If these episodes are even helpful, we want to cater this podcast to you and maximize value. Thanks for listening.

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