Real Producers Being HONEST About Money

So I was like tallying everything I had monthly subscriptions for like down to the cent and I was like, okay, if I want this to last like just over six months, I could only spend $10 a day. You know, you're going to have those nights of insomnia and you're going to get through that fear and then you're going to learn how to manage it the next time it comes around. Hey everyone, Daniel Grimmett here.

You're listening to Producer Management, the podcast that lets you in on real conversations between professional music producers and their teams, the deals, the strategies, and the unfiltered advice. This show is brought to you by my company, Dark Label Music. When producers want clarity, strategy, and growth, they call us.

We're hired as a strategic partner, part management, part creative and business development designed for the realities of being a music producer right now. So whether you're a small studio or a Grammy winning veteran, reach out to us at darklabelmusic.com to see if we can help. So today's episode is a longer one, but I promise that it's going to be a real treat for all of you.

This is probably going to be one of those episodes that you listen to a few times on repeat as you're growing into this business. I sat down and had a conversation with one of my favorite clients, Corey Shore, who's a producer in Nashville. And Corey's story is one that I think a lot of you will relate to and be inspired by.

He made the jump from serving tables to being a full-time music producer in this economy, and things were initially going well, but he quickly hit a wall once the work within his own network dried up, and he didn't really have a process for getting new work. This is a very common issue that I see all the time, but we have a lot of episodes about that. So don't worry, we're going to go even deeper.

Corey has some really interesting stories like how he had to live on a $10 per day budget and make some serious sacrifices just to survive. He openly shares about how he just had to completely reframe his thoughts around money as a creative person, how to set boundaries for himself, and how to actually build a business without sacrificing artistic integrity. Here's the big takeaway from this conversation.

Honestly, this is why I want to share it with you all. Most producers are just not willing to talk about money as openly as Corey is, and I believe that the reason that a lot of producers struggle with money is just because no one's talking about it. Knowledge is power, but if everyone is afraid to talk about money, then it remains a mystery.

It remains in the dark, and then the same bad patterns repeat themselves as new generations of music professionals come up in the industry. So I know some people are a little weird about hearing conversations around money. It can make them feel a certain way, but I do encourage you to take this opportunity to hear what other producers think about it and how they look at it.

They're not trying to be cocky. They're not trying to be victims. They're not trying to be anything in between.

They're just sharing what they feel. So that's why I'm sharing this episode with you in full, one-hour, unedited conversation with Corey. It's a real-life look into what the first year or so can look like as a full-time music producer, how to get work, how to manage your money, how to navigate tough situations and mental health, all of it.

Corey is just a level-headed dude who you can tell has done a lot of work on himself, and he's been an inspiring figure to the rest of our clients here at Dark Label. So I want to share this conversation with you. Here it is.

My name is Corey Shore. I'm a pop producer. I'm based in Nashville right now.

I travel back and forth between here and LA. I'm moving to LA this year after being in Nashville for 10 years. I'm from Philadelphia originally and moved to Nashville back in 2015.

So I've been here for 10 years, which is crazy. LA is about to get a little bit more sunshine. Thank you.

That'll be fun. Well, let's start with a little context. You know how I like to do these things and paint the picture of where you were at.

I know you were newly full-time when we met, like a lot of our producers are. Went out, tried a lot on their own, kind of got over that first hurdle and was like, okay, this is my job now. And then sometimes we are, not sometimes, pretty much every time, smacked with reality.

Going full-time is the starting line, not necessarily the finish line. I want you to paint the picture of where you were at when we first met just so people know. Yeah.

I was a server, which I hated. I had one artist that I was producing regularly that was paying. I got kind of so depressed and fed up with the serving job.

I was like, I've been producing actively five days a week since 2015. The hard skills of it I've been doing for so long. But I got so fed up with the serving job.

I was like, you know what? I don't know how I'm going to make it work. I have this much savings. I know I did the math.

I can survive for six to eight-ish months. Let's say I made no money. I can live off of it for six to eight-ish months and be okay.

So I said, I'm just going to quit and see what happens. My first month, I made $375. And I thought I was an idiot because I was like, holy shit, I'm going to go broke.

I'm going to go broke. It's not going to work. The slap of reality was getting through the first month of thinking more would come in and it not.

And just blindly trying different things and reaching out to everyone I knew and going on Facebook groups and just trying things that I didn't know what I was doing. I just wanted to get the word out that I existed and hoped that people would somehow come or a colleague would be like, hey, produce this person. My friend needs someone like that.

And that did happen. That's kind of how I started. I got my start leading up to Dark Label and meeting Dan and meeting you.

But even though it was happening in the second month, I went from $375 in the first month to just under $1,000 in the second month to just under $2,000 in the third month. It was so like, I couldn't predict anything and I had no system in place of like how I was getting work. It was just completely just planting random seeds and hoping that they would grow.

And I got really, I had a lot of insomnia and I got really kind of like energetically drained with the whole like blind belief and just hoping it would work out. And I wanted something that was a little more concrete to stick my teeth into, which is why I ended up reaching out. Yeah.

We had a nice little growth trajectory there. Yeah. Which I remember when 300 a month was a good month.

Yeah. I still had a job though, so it wasn't, I was probably still living at home at that point too, years and years ago. But 300 bucks for a session, you're like, wow, that's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Thousand and 2000. Yeah.

I, uh, there's a difference, you know, this like difference between making money or getting paid and then knowing how to make money. Right. So we can get people that producers that have huge paychecks, you know, but that doesn't mean they know how to make money.

Right. Yes. And that gig is over and the money is gone.

It's kind of back to, oh my gosh, how am I going to do this? I think you could tolerate that for a little bit, especially when you're younger. But as we, uh, get older and responsibilities mount, we start to, uh, really prefer the, uh, stability over random, you know, random paychecks. Yeah.

Well, and I think there's a skill in and of itself, right? Like there's the music skill, but then there's like the business skills of knowing how to actually maintain and work on the business, not just work in the business and grow the business and know what steps you can take to do that. And, um, create like a foundation to stand on instead of just feeling lucky and hoping it, you keep getting lucky. Um, and someone like me, I mean, I have a wife, I don't have kids, but I have, you know, a little dog and a cat that are my children.

Um, you know, so I have like, I have some responsibilities, you know, we have a mortgage or like there's, you know, so if the HVAC goes down, that's, that's it. Right. Like we gotta, we gotta figure that out.

So, you know, when you have the, when you're faced with that kind of stuff, um, you really do want to develop the skillset of like, can I, can I develop the skillset and belief systems to like healthily without burnout, like healthily function as a, as a, an adult and, and cultivate an environment that creates good growth. Becoming adult. Uh, they didn't tell us that part when we started music.

Yeah. Kids were like, oh, this is great. It's great industry.

We can just be kids forever and stay young. Right. Well, it, uh, it creates more stress over time.

Yeah. Well, I, you know, I was, I, I, it's one of the things I discovered quickly about the music industry when I moved to Nashville was that it was because there's no, so we don't have, uh, we don't have the structures in place that other industries have. Right.

So if you're a doctor, you know, like without you, you don't have to put energy into how long a doctor's appointment is, how scheduling a doctor's appointment is, how the billing works. You're putting no energy into that. You're putting energy into becoming a doctor and then being a doctor.

But there are clear societal boundaries around like, hey, maybe don't ask for your doctor's cell phone number and text them at 11 PM. Right. That's a clear no go.

And they won't even, they won't give you that. Their number, um, and music were responsible like a doctor to becoming really good producers, really good songwriters, really good artists, which takes about probably the same amount of hours as it would to get a doctorate degree. And so you're responsible for that.

But then there's no societal boundary system around rates, how people pay contracts, just normal, like, hey, maybe don't text me a mix critique at 2am. Maybe just email me because I don't want to see that. I don't want to see that when I'm like, you know, so it's like when I first wake up.

So it's like, but part of the attraction that I had when I realized that was, and this is like, I'm throwing this back like 10 years ago when I was like trying to suss out if I even wanted to be in the music industry forever. Because I know I liked music, but I didn't know if I'd like the industry. But part of that was attractive to me because I was like, well, who, how are those pressures going to mold me? And who, what kind of person will I become growth wise? Like, not business, just like person human through these pressures.

And, and it kind of excited me. I was kind of like, well, this is really going to push me to be the best version of me. I could ever be because there's just no guardrails.

It's just the wild west. And it's going to be hard, but it's also going to mold me into like, like I said, just an increasingly better version of who I am. And I found that really attractive.

So yeah, about building any business, building any business, building a business is a incredible personal development tool, not a required one, but it, you know, there's other ways to develop personally too, but I'm not saying everyone has to do that, but it, I know for me, it's been one of the best personal development tools ever. Yeah, same. And yeah, same.

And it's, and it's, it's it really like, yeah, it's like hard and, you know, you're going to have those nights of insomnia and, and, and all, you know, the fear come up, but think about that. You're going to get through that fear and then you're going to learn how to manage it the next time it comes around. And then you're going to get, and then as you do that over and over again, it's not going to hold more and more, um, pressures gracefully.

Um, big problems. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, it's, it's really great. You know, uh, how long were you full time before you jumped into dark? How long were you out there being a cowboy? Yeah, it felt really long, but it wasn't long. I think it was like, I was just under a year at that point, or I went full time mid 2023.

I met you. After I got back from LA, I met with a former, um, producer that you worked with, um, who recommended dark label. And I signed up like that night.

So I sent the, uh, I did the little intake, uh, that night. Um, I think it was, it was probably like less than a year. I was probably coming up on that eight, eight month mark for me where I was.

And I was like, uh, and I was like full time. It was growing. I was probably averaging like upper three months, 3000 a month ish mid upper 3000, which was not an, it was barely enough to scrape by.

Hence, like, why am I, I had to get my spending down to like literally $10 a day and like only spend $10 a day on credit card swipes. That's what I call it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I do mean literally.

Yeah. I remember I told you the story and you're like, Oh yeah, I want, I want to tell the story. Um, yeah, when I went full time, I was running the numbers and I was like, I have, um, you know, I had 17 grand saved.

And I was like, if I want this to stretch and every producer I, um, called that was a peer of mine that has been doing it full time successfully for more than five years. So the first people I called were those people. Cause I was freaking out and I was just like, what do I do? What do I do? Like, and the number of the time that they all kept quoting individually was like, it takes about six to eight months to start kind of getting a flow of work coming in when you're doing it all the time.

And I was like, okay, six, eight months. So I like took the 17 grand divided it by like all my normal expenses, like, you know, the mortgage tax property tax, you know, group that into essentially a rent, right? Like how much am I paying for utilities every month? My personal overhead, let's call it personal overhead. And I was like, okay, so that aside, that's my personal overhead.

I still have groceries. I still have gas. I still have like, well, that's, that's really the necessities.

And then plus getting a haircut or whatever. Right. So it's like, you know, Netflix, all those things.

So I was like tallying everything I had monthly subscriptions for like down to the cent. And I was like, okay, if I want this to last like just over six months for me to live on, I could only spend like $10 a day on what I call the credit card swipes. And so that's basically like $10 a day of anything that I'm swiping a credit card to buy, which is like groceries.

So if I went to go get groceries, and it's $100 for that week, that's 10 days, I'm not spending money past that swipe, right? Because my goal was to be under or at $300 on the credit card about, you know, obviously, other than like the other money, which is like all the utilities and stuff. So that was kind of how I lived. And it was really, really hard, especially like, because you know, you get a Starbucks coffee, and it's 10 bucks at this point.

So. So basically, I just said no to myself all the time. And it got really hard because it was like, Oh, I really I'm hungry.

I don't want to cook or like I'm hungry, and I'm busy, and I don't have time to cook. It'd be easier to get Starbucks, but I'm not going to get Starbucks. Because I don't have that.

I don't have that. So I'm just going to wait like an hour, and then I'm going to grab like a snack bar or something and eat that to tide me over and figure that out. And your financial discipline was definitely a big, you know, people come into Darkly, we, you know, work with them for a bit, we learn, learn about them, just like any relationship.

And you start to see what people's strengths and weaknesses are. And you know, we all have them, we all have both. And I'd say your financial discipline is a big benefit to you.

I mean, just the fact that you saved up that much money as a server and working other jobs. I mean, that that goes, that's not easy to do. And today's economy must either taken a long time, or you were really sacrificing stuff or both.

I assume both. So the fact that you did that, however, you don't possess. Sometimes the only downside to that is there's a difference between sacrificing spending for a goal and being like frugal in the sense that some people with that skill, like Nick Warner, another client of ours, very similar, very financially smart, good with saving money.

He'll sacrifice if he needs to can invest, but he also is willing to invest, right? Yes. Cool. Because some people hoard money, especially as they make more of it in their business, because they, it's really fear driven, right? Because they're like, yeah, but what if I never get any again? It's like, well, if you don't feel like you can get money again, then you have a business problem, you know, like, right.

Like if you know how to run a business, of course, listen, anything can happen. Sure. There's always a little bit of the fear of unknown, but like, you know, if you're that worried about like, oh, this may be the last money I ever make.

And it's like, well, then it, then it probably will be right. That's how you're treating it. So you're not going to use it to grow.

Um, and, uh, so yeah, but you were so point being, you know, even though you were willing to sacrifice financially and be smart with finances, you were also not necessarily hoarding money. You're like, Hey, this, this money has a purpose and it is to grow this business or to yes. Your life until you get it up and up and running.

Um, yes. Well, it's, it's the, um, it's say like saying no to yourself in, in, in one way is allowing yourself to say yes in another way. Right.

Oh, always. Um, and that obviously includes other people too, but I feel like everyone talks about that. Well, a no means a yes, you know, like, yes.

But in terms of yourself, it's like, you know, I've met producers who have asked me how I've been full time. And it's, the answer is never sexy. It's, I want to go out to dinner.

It's going to be 150 bucks for my wife and I to go out to dinner. If we want to go to sushi and like make it a nice dinner. Um, and it's like, um, in Nashville, asterisk Nashville is expensive, but you know, and it's like, and it's like, or we can, I can go to the grocery store, cook a nice dinner and make it a vibe.

And you know what I mean? And yeah, we go on dates still, but it's just like sometimes saying no and still finding a better, you know, yes, that way can allow you to say yes to doing music full time. And eventually you're going to grow it. It's not, it's like a temporary, temporary situation, right? If you're not saying you're not going to live, like, I'm not doing the $10 a day thing anymore, like at all.

But like, I needed that gear to, to get to where I am now. And to your point, Dan too, it's like, yeah, like when I met you, it was like a no brainer. I was like, yeah, this guy is like awesome.

He's legit. He's going to provide me clarity. He's going to help me get to where I think I would naturally get in three years of trial and error, but he's going to get me there in six months of doing it.

And I, I will invest any amount of money to save time because I can make more money. Can't get my time back. A hundred percent.

Yeah. You can get money back, but you cannot get time. And I was thinking about this cause I was going to do a video or podcast on it.

Um, and I totally get it. Like, I'm not just saying this stuff like, oh, this is just stuff anyone should know and think this way. I don't, you know, this is learned, but it's like, um, producers will get real wrapped up in like, yeah, my time is value.

I want to earn money for my time. Right. And it's like, okay, so you value your time.

But then when it comes to like, well, I don't want to like take a couple grand out of savings to grow my business because you know, that that's money. Right. Even though it'll save me a year of time, it's like, well, then do you value your time? Right.

You have to give something up. That's immediate. Right.

So I know it's not exactly a fair comparison, but it's, it's, it is conflicting. Um, as to where I always operated based on, cause it was just driven into my head at a young age. It's like money.

You can get back time. You can't get back. You know, no matter how hard you try, no matter how rich you get, you ain't getting time back money.

You can lose it. You can make more of it. So I always looked at money as way less serious than time.

So I myself have always been into, you know, cool. Yeah. If I can use this money to hire someone else to do so, that's to me what it's for.

However, I understand that if you're in a position where it's like, yeah, but I don't, if money is random to me, I don't know how to control, you know, to go make it when I need it. Well then yeah, sure. That you're, you're not going to feel it's a, it's a chain reaction.

So first you put yourself in a position where it's like, cool. Okay. I understand the, even though it's like not my favorite thing, music's my favorite thing, but at least I understand the art form of like, okay, how a business works and how I can go, you know, generate income for myself if I need to, that unlocks the confidence to be like, okay, well, now that I have that, I'm willing to invest this money in order to speed things up, you know, and, and, um, and then that unlocks a chain reaction to be like, oh, okay, cool.

And it just keeps it as this positive flywheel. But when we kind of hoard our, our resources, both time and money, it creates kind of this negative flywheel. So I've talked to producers where, and it's okay, I'm not judging anybody, but, um, everybody comes to their own conclusions at their own time.

Um, where I've done a financial, I know they have money sitting aside, like sure that is their savings or their emergency or whatever. Um, so I, I get that. I, you know, they're like, I don't want to touch that if I don't have to.

I was like, for sure. But then they're just, their business is dying. It's like, you're going to have to touch it.

If your business doesn't make money, you get that. Right. So all you're doing is you're creating a slower death.

That's a definite one versus using resources to get yourself out of that situation. And if they don't truly believe that's a possible thing, then it's that's when we get into the thing of like, well, buddy, if we don't change that thought, then this just might not be for you, you know? Well, think about this. I mean, like most music aside, let's take a more like traditional, uh, career.

Uh, like, like, like most traditional careers, people move cities because their job relocated them. That is a financial investment. Also like just a personal upheaval, right.

Of to make money. That's what that is. That's right.

And so it's like, that happens all the time. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, everyone does that. And so it's like, if people in more traditional jobs are doing that, it would make sense that there's, there has to be some give and take to investing in your business as a producer.

If you're serious about like actually making it, like doing, doing the thing. And also like, I mean, I, it depends on your belief systems, of course. I mean, I have a belief system that you can have blocks like energy blocks around, uh, your relationship to anything, but also including like money, right? Like we all have a relationship to money and you have to, I would encourage anybody who's listening to, you know, I I'm married to a therapist.

So like Astrid, I'm married to a therapist. So this has come, we live in this world, but, but look at that relationship to, to money for you. And what is it bringing up? Because if it's an unhealthy relationship or it's a scarcity relationship, you're going to, without thinking, make decisions based on that.

And they probably are not going to be positive for your business and, and your life. And so it's being able to sit down however you want to, whether it's writing a song or journaling or just sitting down and thinking about it or talking about it with a friend, but figuring out like, what is my relationship to this? What's coming up for me? What am I actually afraid of? What does money mean? Like were you raised in an environment where money meant that you as a person were more valuable because you had money? So if you spend your savings, you are losing value as a that's going to affect how you invest, right? Um, absolutely small tangent. People don't want to think about money, which I understand.

And, but I know for myself, uh, cause I've been through all the phases of careers, anybody else, you know, um, the, the broke times and the not so broke times. And I'll say that the, when I, the best way to not care about money is to know how to make it and have it. I probably think about money less than most people, you know, just because it's fortunate enough, not through a little luck.

I'm sure everything has a little bit of luck, but you know, through, through just the basics of like, cool. Okay. Here's how you build a business.

I mean, listen, we only have today, anything could end tomorrow, but for the past, at least, you know, 13 years doing music full time and making a above average income doing it. Um, yeah, I probably think about it less. So, um, I think there's this thing of like, oh, if someone does business into the business side, they're less artsy, or they think about money too much.

They then I was like, yeah, it's usually the opposite. Actually. Um, I'm sure you have clients, right.

That the occasional client that maybe they just come from a lot of money or have a lot or the label, like think about when the label's paying for it, right. And money is no option. It's like, yeah, no one's thinking about it because it's taken care of.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and also you, I mean, you can also feel like you can feel intuitively like how people feel about certain things and, and with like, if someone is more like, again, like I'm going to, before I say this, one of the coolest things about pursuing this and walking this path, which everyone's looks different, but you're on a personal path in this, in music.

One of the more beautiful things about it is as you continue to walk through the path, whether you believe it or not, you start to realize that there's just an abundance of opportunities. There's just so much, there's so much opportunity out there. It's insane.

Even if you don't believe that now, as you keep going, you start realizing how much is out there and like how many like people are out there that are serious and how many artists that are out there that are ready to get their songs that they've been sitting on for two years produced because it means that much to them. And they've been saving up for it and are ready. And if it's been looking for the right person and that person might be you.

So it's just, there's a lot. So before I say that, but the, the belief systems that I had to learn before meeting you, Dan, just to breathe air and not freak out is just reminding myself, like when I was on the $10 a day thing was like when I made $375 and I looked back on my month and I was like, wow, if this stayed, if this is what it is for the next six months, I'm losing all that money I saved up and going back to serving, which was like so abhorrent of an idea for me. Cause I really did hate it that much for so many reasons.

Um, that I was like, I, like I started panicking, but I had to keep reminding myself and regrounding in that while I know that today I'm full time and I have enough money to eat today and I have a roof over my head today. I don't know about tomorrow, but I know today I'm okay. And I had to keep doing that every day.

And eventually a year goes by and you've been okay for a year, you know, way easier said than done. That was a really emotionally hard practice to be like, I want to freak out about tomorrow, you know, but eventually it starts to expand. It's like, well, now I know that this week I'm financially good.

I don't know about next week, but I know this week I can afford. And then you go, well, I don't know about next month, but I know that this month good. And I had months that I would go into with nothing on the books.

Like the first of the month would roll around. Nothing was scheduled session wise that was paying at all. And I was, and I'd freak out.

And then it gets to the end of the month and I look back and be like, oh, I made $2,500. Okay. Yep.

That's pretty cool. Like, you know, um, just cool. It's cool to look back.

It's why I tell there's like, it's like an exponential growth curve, right? Because you're trying to do all that work and all this pain and suffering. And all I made was 375 and our brain, you know, he, your wife probably could describe this better than me, but like, we're wired to make things permanent. Right.

So we're like, oh, that's how it is. So that's why a lot of people experience getting paid in music. Even there's a lot of people that have, have made some money in music, maybe part-time.

And like, they quit because they're just like, this just logically doesn't make sense. If it takes X amount of work and I only get paid X. And that's how it's going to be forever. Then how would this even work? And that's why I tell people don't use logic at the beginning.

You'll talk yourself out of it because it doesn't make logical sense at the beginning, because what happens over time is your skills get better. You, you have leverage, which is huge. Right.

And it's like, oh, sweet. I used to have to reach out to, I have some people that they have to hit up 400 artists before they get one project. And they're like, Dan, I can't hit up 400 artists just to get one product.

It's like, well, that's how it's like today, but in three months it'll, you'll hit up 20 artists and get two projects, you know, because you have leverage, the skills go up. It's an exponential growth curve. Yeah.

They'll look at your Instagram and they'll see all of your posts are just album covers of work you've worked on. And that looks very professional for a producer that look, that's a very producer Instagram. It's like, you know, producer videos or just here's all the work I'm doing.

You know what I mean? Here's my, here's a spot, not a SoundCloud link over time. Here's a SoundCloud link, two songs. Here we go.

That are released by artists, you know? So it's like, um, that just naturally happens over time. And, um, I, the word by the way is called catastrophizing. The word is catastrophizing.

It's, uh, it's the act of extrapolating out your emotions and beliefs in the moment to infinity and saying, well, this is representative of my future forever. So therefore I will not do this instead of realizing, Oh, I'm just catastrophizing. Like instead of feeling that, but then going, Oh, I'm feeling this.

And I'm freaked out about the future. Cause I'm worried that in two years, I'll still be reaching out to 400 artists and only to get one artist. But you can recognize, well, that's just catastrophizing.

I'm just catastrophizing right now. Um, and that's not true. It feels true, but it's not true.

You know, now I have a label for our YouTube comments. Yeah. That's like the, that's like the therapy where it's catastrophizing.

Hey buddy. I think that's what's going on. Yeah.

It's a great word lapsing, but, uh, uh, who knows I could be wrong, but well, what were some of the, let's start moving. You know, that's great. I'm glad we got to have the, the money conversation because I think that's something unique you bring to the table and you know, your experience and how you, how you look at that.

Um, what would you say the biggest, if you had to boil it down to like, you know, this is the main issue I'm trying to solve by coming to dark label. And then we'll start painting the picture of what you learned and how things ended up. Yeah.

I mean, clarity is probably clarity and, uh, like clarity in an actionable way, essentially like having an actionable plan that I'm clear on that I can repeat that gives me the confidence to know how to get more work when I need it. Um, because that was the thing I was struggling with. Like I, I've been in Nashville by the time I went full-time, I've been in Nashville for seven years.

I had a community which was helpful to leverage. Um, and I've been around, I've been writing, I've been taking sessions actively throughout those seven years. So it's like, I was a very active member.

So I wasn't starting from zero on the community front. I was starting from zero on the business front and making money from production. So I was like, um, so I got a few peers to be like, Oh, my friend is an artist and she's looking for a producer and he's looking for a producer.

So I, I got a few of those hits before I met you, but they felt so random because they were, they were so random. Um, and there was no way I could repeat that. Like, like in my brain, I was like, how do I, that's so unpredictable.

Like, it's cool that that happened, but like, for sure, you know, um, go ahead. You're describing how most full-time producers go full-time. It's usually they, they're, they're in a, they have a network.

They don't have to be in Nashville or anything. Um, there's a lot of people that think that's everything, right? Oh, if I have connections, I'll have a business. Well, you're just, you just shown that, but that's not necessarily the case.

Uh, if everybody's just co-writing with each other, no one's making any money, not that there's anything wrong with that, but like, just cause you're around really great people that are talented, that doesn't, you're not a built in business from that. Um, because you know, a lot of people move to Nashville and a lot of people leave Nashville. So not you moving to LA, but like people kind of throwing in the towel.

Right. Um, like co-wrote with a bunch of different people for 10 years, nothing popped off. I'm like, all right, I guess I'm done with this.

Um, but they know a lot of cool people and, and are talented, but yeah, most of the time people go full-time because there's enough work coming from their network. They may have played in a band and their local town and Orlando, whatever, and all the other bands want to record with them. And they went to Berkeley or Belmont or whatever and had, you know, their peers became their clients and, and that works.

But usually it starts, I'm glad it showed up earlier for you. Cause a lot of producers that, that come to us, um, the worst thing that can happen is that that lasts for like a decade because you're really far removed from like the, you know, obviously the longer we're in this, the harder it is to learn new things because adapting is very hard for people to do. So I meet producers that are 10 years in and they've never actually had to learn how to go get work because all their work came from their network.

But over time, you know, people move, they quit, they start producing themselves, whatever the network goes down and they don't know how to replace it. And then they come to me 10 years later, like crap, what do I do? That's a very, very common story. And now they're 10 years in, they kind of got a little bit of ego.

They've been doing it for a while and it's actually harder to teach them the process than it is a kid right out of college. That's just like, yeah, whatever. Tell me what to do.

I'll do it. You know, there's again, going back to that time thing and why it's so important. It's not just like, oh, I want things faster.

It's like, no, as we get older as humans, it does, you know, it can become harder to adapt and learn new things. So the earlier you can do that, the better. I mean, I can give you a billion case studies of guys crushing it later on in life.

So anybody listening to this, who's older, it's not over. That just is going to come down to their ability to be open to new things and adapting. And in general, that is harder to do for all of us as we get older, right? Yeah.

Well, and we have, you know, we like, we also don't have the benefit of being 18 and getting four hours of sleep and living on McDonald's and it not having any kind of physical effect on us. You know, we have to sleep and eat well and whatever. And we have responsibilities and stuff.

But that but I actually think it's a good thing because like when I was when I was 18 or in 19 and 20 in early 20s, like I abused that. I didn't have to even have I was so unboundaried in the way I made music because I could abuse my body and with no ramifications. And now I like I am so boundaried because it's like I love music.

It's like the one thing I love. I love it so much. And it's and I still have like work hours and not work hours now because if I don't, I will burn out.

And I've burned out so many times in my life from not having those boundaries. So I think there's also a positive to being if you're listening and you're older. There's a positive to that because you have the benefit of being able to cultivate a more boundaried system that's sustainable over a lifetime versus being like a if you're a 20 year old, you have the benefit of just like going for it.

Yeah. Eating, eating dirt, you know, all day, every day and being okay. But other now for what we did our first six months and then maybe did another.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've been, yeah, we've been together.

Yeah. For other things like the business different, what we're big kind of now that you've gone, gone through it, what sort of big takeaway has been and yes, paint the picture of that. Yeah.

Yeah. And just like to clarify, like, yeah. So pre-meeting, pre-meeting you, Dan, it was, it was to get clarity on how to create that, like a solid foundation, know how to get work, know how to create, have options when work is going down and how to keep it more consistent instead of the normal freelance cycle of like sell, sell, sell ton of work, but then you're not selling and then you are out of work and then you're freaking out.

And that's like a cycle. So how to break that cycle. Now I'm getting really good.

Asterix, I'm getting better, not the best yet, but I'm getting better at the balance from your help, like from literally all your help, honestly. And like being able to listen to my problems and so clearly will listen so well to my problems and then be able to creatively create a solution to that, that felt super approachable, doable, not overwhelming and extremely actionable. And with clarity, which is, I think one of your super, super duper strengths, Dan is like, you're so creative in the way you think about how to help everybody.

It's like, awesome. It's like awesome to be around. You have such a good mind for it.

And like, you know, now having been in dark label for a while, it's, I have a confidence that I totally didn't have before where I know how to get work. I like know how to like flex my like, instead of just being like, well, this is my offer. This is my rate for one song, period.

And if you can't match it, get lost artist. It's like, how to you help me really figure out, well, how, how do I meet artists where they're at while still honoring my rate? And there's so many creative solutions to that, right? Day rates, hourly is co-production with other producers and how to split up those costs. And like, there's so much creativity can have to keep your to, to allow the net you cast to catch, you know, for lack of a better word, like more fish.

Because now your offerings, you're, you're, you're serving the people you're talking to. It's, it's so more concisely, though, the reason why I can dark label was the clarity getting some actionable clarity. And I totally feel like I have so much more of a handle on it.

And I know that you exist. So if I'm ever in like a freak out, I know that I have somewhere to go. I'm not alone.

I think it's also like a knowledge that like there's like a whole community of people around that, that are in dark label. So we're, it's such a helpful, like no ego community. So that's just unbelievable.

We get humbled fast for you go in there because you realize, why is it because I thought I wasn't, you know, everybody humble. And I assume we're making more than 375 a month now. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. I mean, this past month, I mean, in full transparency, I made 64, almost 6,500 this month. Good.

We're getting now. Yeah. Yeah.

Getting up. Year of what you were doing. Levels.

Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. Now it's, I mean, and the thing is too, is like quality of life really like 3,000 to 4,000 a month changes quality of life, right? Like 4,000 to 5,000 changes quality of life, like so immensely.

So it's, it's been the gratitude and the positive energy that I get to wake up to every day now just being like, and it's not lost on me. Like, I think that's one of the things that keeps me grounded. It's just the gratitude that like the future is no matter what the future is just the future and it's uncertain.

So I always read ground. I still read ground in the, Hey, well today, like I know I'm okay. I'm at peace with that financially that I'm right now.

I'm financially okay. And I'm doing music. Yeah.

That's so sick. You know? So, um, and I'm working with people. Yeah.

I think, especially in the first, cause you're, I guess, still in the first, whatever, two years or whatever. Two years. Yeah.

Under two years. Um, it's good. I mean, I think people want to come in and we had a little bit of this too.

I think we had like a big goal, you know, like 10 K a month immediately, which is most people's goal. Um, I will say that I know from like, I didn't do that. Um, I know it's more common nowadays.

You see a million YouTube videos talking about it, but when I was in my first two years, I didn't know that you just went from zero to $10,000 a month. You know, I didn't know that. I'm sure it was possible.

I'm sure people did it, but I didn't know that wasn't a thing. I wasn't, there weren't any YouTube videos talking about that back then in 2011, 12 or whatever. So I actually prefer like a nice, stable growth.

Cause when you get to that 10,000 a month, um, take home, which doing that in the first, you know, two, three years of it, that's, that's very good. If people don't look at it, that's good. I know the economy, it gets more expensive, but I know that's like not what it was 10 years ago or whatever, but like, you know how to handle it.

Cause I also do meet with, I met this producer, his YouTube channel popped off. He started getting sponsorships. Now all of a sudden he's making all this money a month.

And like a lot of people, what they end up doing is like, yeah, they'll make 10,000 a month. I can tell you they're spending 20. Cause they all know how to handle 4,000 a month.

And now you've just given them 20,000 a month. What do you think they're doing with it? They get the nicer apartment, they get the nicer, this, they buy the bigger camera, they get, you know, and then it goes away for like one month just cause you know, business models sometimes dip occasionally and they don't know how to handle it. Cause they never handled.

I mean, I used to, I usually make six crap at drop to four. What do I do? You know, they're going from, I used to make 20. Now it dropped to nothing.

What do I do? And it's, it's, it's developing. It's like, we all need to go from four years old to 40 years old. The years in between four years old.

I mean, between four and 14 years old are very important years. Right. So you don't want, you wouldn't want to go in life from like you're four.

Now all of a sudden you're in the eighth grade. That would be crazy. Right.

So no, you got to grow up and sort of get used to life and learn how to play with other people and you know, how to talk to people and learn things. Money's the same way. So I don't, I understand people's like, I want to make as much money as fast as possible.

And it's like, you don't actually want that. You think you want that. That's only cause you never seen the ramifications of that versus focus on building a stable business and you will build sustainability and wealth over time.

And then when you get to, you know, like, I don't rarely talk about the, the months that, that we do financially because like to other people, they won't even comprehend it to me. It's like, it's whatever. Cause I've slowly grow, grew into it over 13 years.

So it's just kind of like, yeah, no, I mean, we've been doing it for that long. Of course it gets higher and you know, it's just a different level of business, but it's less like that. You know, most people, what that when the lottery, right, they blow it all or don't know how to handle it or breaks their families up or whatever.

It's like a similar kind of thing. You get a little bit of that trust fund effect when a bunch of monies, not that he didn't work for it, but like you get a bunch of money thrown at you at one time that, that has its own issues. So I like your growth trajectory.

I think that's solid. Thank you. I love it too.

I mean, I'm, and, and, and to that point, like I had a great month this month, but you know, February and March were so low. I think I made a thousand dollars in February only because like, it was like just this weird, awkward period of like closing a lot of projects in January. I had a great January, like an $8,000 January.

And then February was like such a weird month, but it didn't phase me because I had an $8,000 January. And I didn't spend, I didn't spend in January. Like I had an $8,000 January.

I spent in January, like I had a $3,000 January, like you want to live below your means, like, you know, Totally. Yeah. Um, that's why I like to look at things in quarters.

Generally. Yeah. The 90 day period is usually a good indicator.

People can have a weird month. We have weird months. Sometimes things didn't align align that month.

Um, doesn't mean the business is failing or that we're doing anything wrong. So I like to look at it in 90 day periods because over a 90 day period, maybe you can tell like, okay, we're doing something wrong here. Or like the YouTube videos we're making are not working or we're doing, you know, that's fine.

Like a long enough window, um, to kind of tell, but we look at it in quarters. Yeah. And it was in that period where I called you in a freak out.

Cause like, I was like, Oh, I like, what do I do? You know? And, and you gave me like, really just again, like really grounding actionable steps to, to do, which I was doing a little bit of already, but just kind of help clarify exactly what I need to do. And it just really helped me feel like, instead of just being like, what do I do? It helped give me a sense of, uh, Oh, here's something I can do. I can take my nervous energy and scared energy and put it into this, which will yield results.

And it did. And so, um, it's just a really, the skills you develop, especially like you can, especially through meeting you, Dan is, is like, you're just so good at helping people figure out specifically what that person needs, given who they are, their strengths, their weaknesses, their situation, and creatively solving that, creating a solution for where they're at. And it's, it's a superpower.

You have that superpower. Yeah. It's fun to do.

It's very fun to, thanks, Corey. That's a, a cool conversation. I don't think a lot of people, producers get to, uh, get to hear.

I'm glad we leaned into that topic, I think that's a big one to, to that's just the most unpopular one for people hear about a lot. So I think that's, uh, that's great. I think this convo will help a lot of people, man.

So I appreciate time and willingness to share your experience. Yeah. Thanks for having me seriously.

If you go to producermanagement.com, you'll find links to jump on our newsletter, which I highly recommend because it's the perfect companion to the show. And if you enjoy what we're doing here, please leave us a five-star review or share it with a friend. Thanks for listening.

That's the episode.